Army band and people in a field

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Where: Unknown

Try to find the spot where the photographer was standing.

When: 01 January 1924

Try to find the date or year when this image was made.
Today we make a rare visit to the Hogan-Wilson collection, and while it may not be our clearest photograph ever, you can see enough detail to suggest that this is a military procession. Perhaps a funeral? I like that all the cattle to the right seem to be focused on the proceedings. What are the chances of discovering the location?

The community pulled-out all the stops on this one, and propose at least two possible candidates on subject, date and location.

Based on the 1924 date in the catalogue, and the possible mixed Garda and army cortege, guliolopez suggests that this could be the funeral of Garda John Murrin at Bruckless, County Donegal. (He had been shot at Carrick-on-Suir in May 1924, and succumbed to his wounds later in the year). While there is a reasonable overlap on date and subject matter, there is less certainty on the location...

In a parallel thread, and based on the description and army presence, Rory_Sherlock suggests this might be the 1922 funeral of army Sgt Michael Roche at Doolin, County Clare. (He had been killed in a grenade explosion at Tralee in August 1922). While there is less overlap with the catalogue range, we've learned before that they are not always reliable, and there seems more overlap and certainty on landscape and location.

There is perhaps a consensus building that we're looking at a Hogan capture of the latter army/Roche funeral.....


Photographer: W. D. Hogan

Collection: Hogan Wilson Collection

Date: Catalogue suggests c.1924. Though possibly 1922.

NLI Ref.: HOG215

You can also view this image, and many thousands of others, on the NLI’s catalogue at catalogue.nli.ie

Info:

Owner: National Library of Ireland on The Commons
Source: Flickr Commons
Views: 9903
hoganwilsoncollection wdhogan nationallibraryofireland funeral band procession army coffin 1920s crowd horses rural

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  • profile

    derangedlemur

    • 01/Mar/2017 07:20:15

    Even when you can see the background it's pretty anonymous.

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    derangedlemur

    • 01/Mar/2017 07:23:32

    It is a funeral, though; The group behind the band are carrying a coffin.

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    derangedlemur

    • 01/Mar/2017 07:50:08

    Michael Collins' uncle died in 1924. I suppose they might have got the band out for that, on the strength of his being a land leaguer. antoglach.militaryarchives.ie/PDF/1924_07_19_Vol_2_No12_A...

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    Carol Maddock

    • 01/Mar/2017 09:15:50

    Ooooh, this one should be tagged "Toughie", but as usual I'm prepared to be amazed!

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    Rory_Sherlock

    • 01/Mar/2017 09:40:57

    I wonder is that the Garda band leading an army group with the coffin? The Garda Band was formed in 1922/23 and the band's uniforms in this image seem darker than the army uniforms.

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    Niall McAuley

    • 01/Mar/2017 10:09:30

    1924-09-11 coachford procession (Cork Examiner) 1924-11-04 soldier's funeral

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    Niall McAuley

    • 01/Mar/2017 10:33:42

    It is very open countryside, looks almost like the Curragh.

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    guliolopez

    • 01/Mar/2017 13:21:16

    While the current/modern army band uniform is darker than the regular army uniform (black with red piping compared to - well - green), according to the DF website, the first band uniforms were sky blue. The band leading this procession are almost certainly not wearing sky blue. So I guess [https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]] could be correct in suggesting a Garda band. On the date, that the crowd and soldiers are wearing heavy winter coats (and even scarves) would suggest this isn't mid-summer. Even an Irish summer. The sky also suggests rain. (But that just lends to the atmosphere of the image - rather than date/location).

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    oaktree_brian_1976

    • 01/Mar/2017 13:47:07

    Let' s play guess the field.

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    Bernard Healy

    • 01/Mar/2017 14:19:59

    www.military.ie/typo3temp/pics/67b91867ca.jpg This is a picture of the Army No 1, No 2, and No 3 bands in 1929. I don't think we can say that the uniforms as shown in 1929 make it impossible for our picture to be of one of the army bands...

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    swordscookie back and trying to catch up!

    • 01/Mar/2017 15:01:50

    A fine open field with lots of people, a few cattle and lots of questions! Firstly: It is almost certainly the Garda Band from the cut of the uniform and general appearance. Secondly: The officers in the background appear to be in military uniforms as they are a different colour but Garda officers up to the early 1980's wore a cloth of different quality and colour to the other ranks. It was similar in cut and style to that of Army officers and in mono could easily be mistaken for their uniform! Thirdly: There is the possibility that the funeral is that of a member of the Garda who was murdered in the course of his duty. These ranged from Garda Henry Phelan in Novermber 1922 to the present day but most of those who died were killed between 1922 and 1948! The terrain certainly looks like the Curragh but the background scenery would indicate otherwise?

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    guliolopez

    • 02/Mar/2017 02:11:40

    For some reason I can't access Flickr from my PC this evening (only my phone), and so will wait til the morning before trying to upload some stuff. But, I *think* this could be Bruckless County Donegal in late October 1924, and the funeral of Gda John Murrin. Like a good student, I will be sure to "show my work" ASAP :)

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    Oretani Wildlife (Mike Grimes)

    • 02/Mar/2017 09:01:09

    It would appear to be near a lake or perhaps the sea as there seems to be water to the right. I would say the sea as the house has the gable end towards it as houses tend to be in windswept areas. Also there aren't any trees or bushes so perhaps the Atlantic coast? Regarding the cattle following the proceedings, I remember the strange feeling everyone felt at my father-in-law' funeral when, as we followed the hearse from the church to the graveyard, all his cattle were lined up at the fence to watch the procession go by. It was quite earie.

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    guliolopez

    • 02/Mar/2017 09:32:22

    OK. As I said last night, I took some time to look for likely funerals. Focusing on Guards. And bands. In 1924. If it is a Garda funeral (and looking at the uniforms again, I agree with [https://www.flickr.com/photos/swordscookie] that most likely is), I found a few possibles. Most of which are listed in this Wikipedia article on Guards who died in the line of duty. In date order, they are: • Sat 2 Feb 1924 | Freemans Journal - which covers the death and funeral of Gda O'Halloran. He was shot while pursuing bank robbers in Baltinglass, County Wicklow. There are pictures of the funeral which are attributed to Hogan. In the images we see uniforms and overcoats similar to "our" image. But the context is much more urban. So perhaps not a good candidate. • Thu 13 Mar 1924 | Evening Herald - covering the murder and "impressive funeral" of Gda Nolan (DMP). He was killed in a hatchet attack at Pearse St Station. It mentions a DMP band leading the cortege, and tricolour on the coffin. But again sounds a little "urban" for our image. • Fri 9 May 1924 | Evening Herald - on another "impressive funeral" for Gda Griffin at St Joseph's cemetery in Cork. He, along with colleague Gda Murrin (who was to die later from his wounds, below) was shot during an incident in Carrick-On-Suir. A visiting garda band from Dublin is mentioned. • Sat 22 Mar 1924 | Kilkenny People - on the funeral of a (different) Gda Nolan from Carlow. Mentions cortege and escort - but not a band. • Wed 28 May 1924 | Freemans Journal - which describes the funeral of Gda Mooney in Listowel. It was led by the temperance brass band. • Mon 20 Oct 1924 | Cork Examiner - on the death of Gda Murrin. He had been shot in the same Carrick-On-Suir incident which took the life of his (Cork) colleague Gda Griffin. Murrin was paralysed and survived some months - before succumbing to his wounds at St Vincents in Dublin in October. The article suggests the band will travel to his home place in Bruckless, County Donegal for the funeral. I really would not be surprised (based on the wintry weather, band, rural setting, etc) if this was the funeral of Gda Murrin at Bruckless, County Donegal in late October 1924. While I looked around a little however, I can't pinpoint a likely spot in that neck of the woods though. www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/33203238025/ www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/33161532256/ www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/32358741134/ www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/33203238475/ www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/32358740964/ www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/33161532206/

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    guliolopez

    • 02/Mar/2017 11:23:38

    That looks like a fairly likely candidate alright [https://www.flickr.com/photos/beachcomberaustralia]. I'd assumed we were watching the cortege carry the coffin from a local train station to a nearby cemetery. And hence focused my "scenery search" around both. However, a route from the station to a cemetery would travel on a road. And not across a field. Even in then rural/remote Donegal. Your suggestion however prompts the thought - that perhaps they are bringing the remains to the deceased's home. Which would lend more to the "through-the-fields" nature of the image. Perhaps the "Jimmy Magee of StreetView"([https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]]) has some thoughts? Or maybe someone in Mary Murrins Pub (just a kilometer or so from the point you suggest) can shed some light?

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    Niall McAuley

    • 02/Mar/2017 11:42:12

    14 John Murrins in the 1911 census. [https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]]'s clipping says Murrin was only 26 in 1924, so he should be 13ish in 1911. John Alphonsus, perhaps? Was hoping to locate his home, but he is at an Uncles house for the census.

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    guliolopez

    • 02/Mar/2017 11:50:56

    [https://www.flickr.com/photos/gnmcauley] - He's listed as "John Alphonsus" in the List of Gardaí killed in the line of duty on Wikipedia.

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    Niall McAuley

    • 02/Mar/2017 11:52:54

    [https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]] That's him, so!

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    O Mac

    • 02/Mar/2017 11:59:45

    [https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]] You'd want to be careful about that "Jimmy Magee" thing. [https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]] might have a hissy fit... Did you see who's accredited with the Garda OHalloran funeral photo's in your Freeman's clip above?.

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    Niall McAuley

    • 02/Mar/2017 12:26:57

    How about this building in Bruckless as the big house in the distance?

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    Bernard Healy

    • 02/Mar/2017 12:35:11

    [https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]] That's an interesting observation regarding whether a funeral cortege would travel 'cross-country' or not. There's certainly a custom in Kerry (and throughout much of rural Ireland?) that one shouldn't take a 'short cut' on the way to a cemetery. I half-remember a proverb 'as gaeilge' that one takes the 'short way to the church' and the 'long way to the graveyard'.

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    Niall McAuley

    • 02/Mar/2017 12:37:29

    Wow, there were 13 people at home in Aighen for the 1901 census, including then 3 year old John A Murrin.

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    Niall McAuley

    • 02/Mar/2017 12:39:31

    A 1st class house, with 8 windows to the front, 13+ rooms occupied. Should certainly be visible on the map.

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    Niall McAuley

    • 02/Mar/2017 12:41:21

    On the 1911 form, it's a Hotel!

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    Niall McAuley

    • 02/Mar/2017 12:47:51

    It is Mary Murrin's bar, or the houses next door, mentioned by [https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]] earlier. Now, if that is where John Alphonsus lived, why are they trekking over the hill?

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    Rory_Sherlock

    • 02/Mar/2017 12:57:50

    I'm not convinced that is the funeral of a Garda - I'd expect more Gardai than just the band to attend.

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    Niall McAuley

    • 02/Mar/2017 13:03:42

    This may not be the funeral itself, just a procession from the train to his home.

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    Rory_Sherlock

    • 02/Mar/2017 13:06:04

    It may be the funeral of Sergeant Michael Roche, a member of the National Army, who was killed by an accidental grenade explosion in Tralee in late August 1922. He was buried in Killilagh graveyard near Doolin in Co Clare. maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V2,507765,697794,11,9 The graveyard is set on high ground in a large field which slopes southeast to the road, a cottage and a large house (Toomullin House - no longer standing). A footpath runs uphill towards the graveyard, but veers off to the right of it - this may be visible in the photo as a dark line running from the three furthest-away figures towards the centre-left of the image. A road now runs close to the graveyard and a streetview looking back downhill is not unlike the topography in the old photo: www.google.ie/maps/@53.0215124,-9.3746479,3a,75y,146.29h,...

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    derangedlemur

    • 02/Mar/2017 13:23:29

    I'd have said the wall in the foreground was the graveyard wall, and it looks a bit fancy for the west coast. I'd have thought Cork or points east.

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    Niall McAuley

    • 02/Mar/2017 13:47:28

    [https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]] Nice, Rory, I especially like this building in Streetview for the cottage in the middle-distance.

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    Niall McAuley

    • 02/Mar/2017 14:02:22

    Just took a look down at the site of Toomullin House in streetview here, and the rise behind it looks good to me. I am voting with Rory for Doolin.

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    O Mac

    • 02/Mar/2017 14:22:20

    [https://www.flickr.com/photos/139[email protected]] I think you're right too. The same hill forms can be seen in this YouTube (1:22) Stone walling is of similar construction www.flickr.com/photos/randomconnections/18345243624 and Hogan would have stood on this mound to get the elevation.

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    National Library of Ireland on The Commons

    • 02/Mar/2017 23:53:23

    Amazing stuff guys. [https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]]'s investigations would likely impress the Guards themselves. Although it may be that the catalogue date has given a possible bum-steer. As, though the date doesn't quite match, there is perhaps a little more overlap with subject and location in [https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]]'s suggestion. For now I've updated the description to reference both - though not yet updated the map/etc. Thanks so much all - You guys rock!

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    Dr. Ilia

    • 03/Mar/2017 10:00:04

    Great shot!