A working breakfast.

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This could prove to be a stumbling block in the pantheon of successes we have had in identifying people, places and times. An image of three men at a breakfast table with all the accoutrements for the petit dejeuner and especially a fine, big teapot. I love the piping for the gas light over their heads!

While some have pointed out the "Collins-esque" nature of the chap on the left it is most probable that these are associates of photographer and med student JJ Clarke. It's even plausible that these are his boarding "room mates" at St. Alban's Road in Dublin. The 1901 census shows Clarke boarding with two chaps named William Flynn and Godfrey Ross. (Eminently plausible methinks...)


Photographers: J. J. Clarke

Collection: Clarke Photographic Collection

Date: Catalogue range c.1890-1910

NLI Ref: CLAR45

You can also view this image, and many thousands of others, on the NLI’s catalogue at catalogue.nli.ie

Info:

Owner: National Library of Ireland on The Commons
Source: Flickr Commons
Views: 7788
clarkephotographiccollection jjclarke johnjosephclarke 1879–1961 brianpclarke–donor nationallibraryofireland menatbreakfast table gaslighting fireplace teapot onlydullpeoplearebrilliantatbreakfast

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  • profile

    CASSIDY PHOTOGRAPHY

    • 06/Jun/2019 07:45:52

    Well, someone should have had a "working breakfast" with Trump, before his visit, when he suggested Ireland should "build a wall". Does he even read? Does he know anything about world history or Irish history? If so, I doubt he would make such a stupid statement. I provided an education, about Ireland, deep within the US gov't., more than 35 years ago . . . AND, I just didn't care what they thought of "being told". They have a very narrow view of the world. With regard to your photo, I have a question. Where is the dog? I see a bowl in the corner, beside the fireplace framing. One member with the moustache looks similar to Arthur Griffith.

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    Dún Laoghaire Micheál

    • 06/Jun/2019 07:53:49

    Man on right: "Will yiz ever put away those darn phones and lets have a dacent conversation"

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    Dún Laoghaire Micheál

    • 06/Jun/2019 07:55:56

    Could that possibly be Michael Collins on left (with his Treaty moustache)? www.irishtimes.com/opinion/diarmaid-ferriter-michael-coll...

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    National Library of Ireland on The Commons

    • 06/Jun/2019 08:10:24

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/cassidyphotography I was going to draw attention to the dog bowl but that does not have a tail to wag!

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    CASSIDY PHOTOGRAPHY

    • 06/Jun/2019 08:33:49

    www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/ Micheál, I too initially thought it was Michael Collins, looking at the gentleman's ears, but could not be sure. Your refernece convinces me. So, who is the young fellow?

  • profile

    CASSIDY PHOTOGRAPHY

    • 06/Jun/2019 08:56:59

    Young man might just be: maybe Pádraig Pearse. Not sure. He seems to have the same upper lip and parts his hair on the same side. His chin and forehead seems different, though. Studying his face, seems like Seán Mac Diarmada is another good fit. www.nli.ie/1916/exhibition/en/content/sevensignatories/se... Offering one last possibility for the young man: WILLIAM “WILLIE” PEARSE jwalsh2013.files.wordpress.com/2016/05/willie-pierce.jpg www.irishcentral.com/roots/history/1916-easter-rising-guide Next: Where was the location? Hint: See the dog's bowl

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    Niall McAuley

    • 06/Jun/2019 09:18:42

    Yiz are losing the run of yizzerselves! JJ Clarke was a medical student when he took these pictures, not a photographer following the famous and powerful. I think that is himself, JJ Clarke, on the right. J.J. Clarke?

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    Niall McAuley

    • 06/Jun/2019 09:21:23

    We could be in the same building, the RUI medical school on Cecilia Street - very similar gas pipes.

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    Peter Denton

    • 06/Jun/2019 09:55:42

    I don't know who the gentlemen were, but those boom microphones were pretty crude in those days, don't you think? 😄

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    Bernard Healy

    • 06/Jun/2019 13:44:14

    A little speculation - the 1901 Census shows Clarke to be in lodgings with two other lodgers - both about 13 years old than him. Might this be a photo of the 3 lodgers at breakfast together in their digs? www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Dublin/Merchant...

  • profile

    Foxglove

    • 06/Jun/2019 14:23:43

    Bernard, you may have topped it on the head

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    Niall McAuley

    • 06/Jun/2019 14:54:43

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/bernardhealy I like it! Makes the dog bowl fit better too - unlikely to be in a restaraunt or hotel.

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    Niall McAuley

    • 06/Jun/2019 15:03:21

    I think JJs roomie, Godfrey Ross, is probably in the Malting trade rather than the Melting trade as transcribed on the census website.

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    DannyM8

    • 06/Jun/2019 17:18:18

    The Dog snapped it....

  • profile

    BeachcomberAustralia

    • 06/Jun/2019 21:54:23

    Brilliant work! Which reminds me of an Oscar Wilde quote from 'An Ideal Husband' (1895) - Only dull people are brilliant at breakfast. Were they deliberately trying to look 'dull' for the camera, implying brilliance for the rest of the day?

  • profile

    CASSIDY PHOTOGRAPHY

    • 06/Jun/2019 22:41:53

    I expected the three gentlemen to be positively identified and their location, 14 hours later. :-(

  • profile

    Niall McAuley

    • 07/Jun/2019 05:17:45

    If one of these gentlemen is Wiliam Flynn, Draper's Assistant, per the 1901 census linked by Bernard above, then the Earliest date is 1897 (when Clarke started his medical studies) and Latest is 1901, when Flynn got married according to the 1911 census. Registrar's records say 12th June 1901 in the pro cathedral.

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    Oretani Wildlife (Mike Grimes)

    • 07/Jun/2019 08:23:34

    The man on the left is surely the Big Fella. As for the guy in the middle I thought Arthur Griffith due to the tache and glasses but the hairline is more like James Connolly, who also sported a fairly bushy tache, but I can't find any photos of him with glasses. I'd agree with https://www.flickr.com/photos/cassidyphotography about the man on the right being Willie Pearse.

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    CASSIDY PHOTOGRAPHY

    • 07/Jun/2019 09:04:36

    www.flickr.com/photos/mikeegee/ why I believe the man-in-the-middle is Arthur Griffiths is based on the fact he is wearing eyeglasses, has a longer thinner nose and his ears' shape looks like these- www.google.com.au/search?q=arthur+Griffith&source=lnm... versus James Connolly- www.google.com.au/search?q=james+connolly&source=lnms... www.flickr.com/photos/gnmcauley/ surely, you are joking

  • profile

    Niall McAuley

    • 07/Jun/2019 11:14:31

    [https://www.flickr.com/photos/cassidyphotography] Not at all, I think Bernard above is correct, and these are JJ Clarke, William Flynn (assistant draper) and Godfrey Ross (clerk) in the front room of #8 St Alban's Road (Streetview) very near to the 1901 census date.

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    CASSIDY PHOTOGRAPHY

    • 07/Jun/2019 11:40:58

    Utter nonsense. I never forget a face. And, merely based upon facial features, I can just about correctly guess every time which province in China a person is from. Anhui Province people look very different from Yunnan Province people, who look very different from Sichuan and Shanghai. I am not a facial recognition expert, but, they are not JJ Clarke, William Flynn (assistant draper) and Godfrey Ross (clerk).

  • profile

    CASSIDY PHOTOGRAPHY

    • 07/Jun/2019 11:44:56

    Here are a couple photos of Michael Collins and he looks similar to the gentleman with his back to the wall and left side of the image- ak1.ostkcdn.com/images/products/is/images/direct/2975ec3b... www.limerickleader.ie/resizer/750/563/true/GN4_DAT_107533... www.irishtimes.com/polopoly_fs/1.3305817.1511716040!/imag... www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0wEaATmtcA

  • profile

    Niall McAuley

    • 07/Jun/2019 13:17:15

    [https://www.flickr.com/photos/cassidyphotography] Here is Michael Collins in the 1901 census, around when JJ Clarke was taking these photos. He's 10. I think the gentlemen shown are somewhat older.

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    Bernard Healy

    • 07/Jun/2019 13:41:55

    Obviously my suggestion above is little more than speculation but, I've never seen a pic of Griffith & Collins together with hair-partings on the same side. Plus, Collins's 'Treaty Moustache' was somewhat smaller. In fairness, the guy is looking away from the camera in a very Collins-esque post - Collins did not like the idea of the British having a good photo of him.

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    CASSIDY PHOTOGRAPHY

    • 07/Jun/2019 16:47:26

    Any chance the photo could be 1920, 1921, and not later than August 1922? A state owned Electricity Supply Board was created, in 1927 and Siemens turned on the lights in 1929, thus it is conceivable the gaslight above there heads would still be there. So, the photo was taken, before Michael Collins was assassinated. Also, would it be possible boarders gave incorrect names, when the census was taken? Mistakes and deception happen. In fact, in my family history, a census was taken, but the person recording the details of a conspicuous Irish family listed them as "Italian". Stuff-ups happen. If J.J. Clarke indeed took the photo, bear in mind "Clarke, J. J. (John J.), 1879-1961, photographer." I can find no photos of: William Flynn (assistant draper) Godfrey Ross (clerk) Here is a photo of J.J. Clarke- img2.thejournal.ie/inline/1585747/original/?width=336&... If J.J. Clarke was in the mood for a "selfie", he looks like none of the above three gentlemen. Clarke was a Medical Student when? 1905 img2.thejournal.ie/inline/1585670/original/?width=389&... In both images of J.J. Clarke, he does not look like any of the three gentlemen. What glass plate cameras had self-timers or timers to release the shutter, to enable a selfie, say between 1904 and 1922? The above photo was likely taken much later. How did Niall McAuley arrive at the address, St Alban's Road? While he may have been boarding there, the photo may not have been taken there. Would such a large ornate wooden framed fireplace be installed in mass produced row-houses, with cornices and 10 ft ceilings and half-wooden walls? Other informtion that may throw a wrench into my theory who the three gentlemen are, both Seán Mac Diarmada and Willie Pearce are older than Michael Collins and were executed May 1916. So, I give up. I do not know who they are, but I do not believe J.J. Clarke took a selfie, that day, neither photo in the links look like any of the three. Was this even a J.J. Clarke photo? He was most noted for his street photography?

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    Niall McAuley

    • 07/Jun/2019 17:33:46

    Was this even a J.J. Clarke photo? He was most noted for his street photography? I pasted a selfie Clarke took of himself (with a skeleton) in a comment upthread, and it is obviously the same man at right in this one. I think he is even wearing the same jacket. OK, now I see that you linked a copy of that same image, the very same man taking a selfie in your comment arguing that he did no such thing. Good day to you sir.

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    National Library of Ireland on The Commons

    • 07/Jun/2019 19:52:28

    In honesty https://www.flickr.com/photos/cassidyphotography, my initial thought was that the chap in question was at least "Collins-esque", but: it is definitely a Clarke photo, almost certainly predates Collins' treaty and even Rising activities, and is therefore more likely to be "Clarke-ian" in nature :) I will update the description shortly...

  • profile

    CASSIDY PHOTOGRAPHY

    • 08/Jun/2019 00:58:33

    www.flickr.com/photos/gnmcauley/ , when comparing two enlargements on my fairly high resolution Eizo Photographic monitor, I see two different people. img2.thejournal.ie/inline/1585670/original/?width=389&... versus catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000168194 The hairline is different. The one with the skeleton, the hairline is higher and hair seems to be thinner and/or lighter. While the part is on the same side, the hair style is different, and was already exhibiting male-pattern-baldness. And, that photo was probably 1904 to 1905, when he was about 25 years old. The ages of th men in the photo above and the one with the seleton would be approximately the same, though the amount of hair on their heads is different. Then, examine his ears closely. The photo of the right ear exposed in the photo with the skeleton, seems to have a distinct ear lobe, as in this photo, too- img2.thejournal.ie/inline/1585747/original/?width=336&... The photo of the young man above had an attached or no ear lobe. Then, there is the protruding upper lip, suggesting an overbite, which does not show up in later photos. The large, sauce pan eye sockets, lower cheeks . . . As for the coats being the same . . . I have my doubts. I used two different software to ehance the photo, and cannot clearly discern a buttonhole in the lapel, in the photo with the skeleton. Also, in the photo with the skeleton, one buton high up reflects the light, but in the photo above, it light is reflected off the buton of the man's coat in the middle, but not off of the young man's coat, suggestion it could be cloth covered . . . Also, the coat in the above photo seems to be a coarse woolen type, but the photo with the skeleton, the coat does not seem to be so course, even when i darken it to bring out such a feature. So, I am not yet convinced they are the same young man, based on the differences I have identified. Lastly, there was a fourth person at the table. If you note on the table, to the right of the Collins-look-alike, you will see what looks like a wooden photographic glass plate holder, thus the person taking the photo could have been J.J. Clarke. Examining all of the small details, I still do not think we can safely wager the young man is Clarke.

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    Spanrz

    • 13/Jul/2019 06:53:30

    My photography eye, points out that the Photographer wanted "us" to focus on the Teapot/Eggs that's on the table, rather than the people in it. Like, draw your attention away from the people (because they aren't the people you think they are), but look at the scene instead?