Another church, allegedly! We are not convinced...

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Where: N Ireland, Newry Mourne and Down, UK

Try to find the spot where the photographer was standing.

When: Unknown

Try to find the date or year when this image was made.
This building in the foreground does not look very “churchy” (technical term) to our ancient eyes, at any rate.

Photographer: Robert French

Collection: Lawrence Photograph Collection

Date: Between 1865 - 1914

NLI Ref: L_CAB_03060

You can also view this image, and many thousands of others, on the NLI’s catalogue at catalogue.nli.ie

Info:

Owner: National Library of Ireland on The Commons
Source: Flickr Commons
Views: 2122
nationallibraryofireland williamlawrence robertfrench lawrencephotographcollection 1623 locationidentified

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  • profile

    O Mac

    • 15/Jan/2020 09:26:39

    Bessbrook, Newry, College Square E maps.app.goo.gl/wURYra31G599kjEZ7

  • profile

    DannyM8

    • 15/Jan/2020 09:30:17

    Another feckin CLOCK "DOG Free 2020" Continues. NLI take a Bow - wow

  • profile

    O Mac

    • 15/Jan/2020 09:34:08

    Town Hall, built 1886 archiseek.com/2014/1886-town-hall-bessbrook-co-armagh/

  • profile

    National Library of Ireland on The Commons

    • 15/Jan/2020 09:41:08

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected] We have to keep our antipodean visitors happy, so if that means “another feckin CLOCK”, then so be it.

  • profile

    National Library of Ireland on The Commons

    • 15/Jan/2020 09:42:07

    Thank you, https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]! Emphatically not a church.

  • profile

    sharon.corbet

    • 15/Jan/2020 09:43:39

    Taken shortly before this version with added kids.

  • profile

    BeachcomberAustralia

    • 15/Jan/2020 09:44:50

    [https://www.flickr.com/photos/nlireland] Thank you for the clock; I wonder if this one could write letters to the newspapers too? Uncropped - L_ROY_07271 - catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000320037

  • profile

    BeachcomberAustralia

    • 15/Jan/2020 09:49:06

    I tell a lie - the people have moved; it is a different photo ... Ed. SNAP @ https://www.flickr.com/photos/scorbet It's the quick and the dead around here!

  • profile

    DannyM8

    • 15/Jan/2020 09:49:59

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/ What time is it?

  • profile

    sharon.corbet

    • 15/Jan/2020 09:50:11

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/beachcomberaustralia It's also a few minutes later on the clock. (I almost fell for it too.)

  • profile

    BeachcomberAustralia

    • 15/Jan/2020 09:52:39

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected] 16:23. 16:25 on the other photo. Mr French is pulling our legs ...

  • profile

    O Mac

    • 15/Jan/2020 09:53:49

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/ Your language has gone to the dogs!.... wherever they've gone....

  • profile

    Niall McAuley

    • 15/Jan/2020 09:54:56

    Bessbrook mills were the site of the British Army's major helicopter base for all of South Armagh during the troubles: Bessbrook Mill Heliport South Armagh Northern Ireland

  • profile

    Niall McAuley

    • 15/Jan/2020 10:12:04

    Not much dateable beyond the >1886 hall in this one. Nearby L_ROY_07272 has a row of shops including newspaper posters, which I am pretty sure headline THE KING'S ILLNESS and KING'S CONDITION, so we are definitely after 1901 (the end of Queen Victoria's reign) and probably at March-May 1910 when King Edward was dying.

  • profile

    Foxglove

    • 15/Jan/2020 10:12:49

    puma, lynx.... cats! but still dog free 2020

  • profile

    BeachcomberAustralia

    • 15/Jan/2020 10:15:26

    Flickr is sometimes amazing! In 2010 via https://www.flickr.com/photos/joysmith7mr/https://www.flickr.com/photos/joysmith7mr/4294161464/

  • profile

    Niall McAuley

    • 15/Jan/2020 10:25:00

    Hmm, perhaps not much help, since French/Lawrence were here more than once. L_CAB_03067 shows the same shops but with different names on some.

  • profile

    Niall McAuley

    • 15/Jan/2020 10:37:39

    In 1901, I see Margaret Crouch widow and Grocer next to Agnes Boyle postmistress, then Daniel O'Hare butcher and then Elizabeth Weir stationer. All consistent with the Kings Illness headline pic. Maybe an earlier illness? The King was too ill to be coronated in June 1902 - maybe then?

  • profile

    Niall McAuley

    • 15/Jan/2020 10:51:17

    By 1911, Margaret Crouch and Daniel O'Hare are still there, but no Weir. O'Hare's shop looks vacant in 3067. I think the newspapers shot is 1902, and 3067 is after the 1911 census.

  • profile

    suckindeesel

    • 15/Jan/2020 13:18:38

    I wonder if it was a real town hall, in the administrative sense. Bessbrook was tiny "model" village developed by the Richardson linen family to house its workers, so wasn't a town. In time, it lies between Portlaw and Bournville. It was probably more of a "civic" centre which also housed their school. The OSNI maps identify it as "Institute", which implies a school. Also note presence of children in the other photo and the College name of the square. It's ironic that a village founded on Quaker principles should end up in the 1970s as the largest military helicopter base in Europe. Apparently, one of their principles was the "3 Ps", no Public Houses, no Pawn Shops, therefore no need for Police.

  • profile

    suckindeesel

    • 15/Jan/2020 15:16:58

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/gnmcauley Yes, our pic sits between L_ROY_07272 and the one of the local Friend's Meeting Hall, so is likely from same day

  • profile

    BeachcomberAustralia

    • 15/Jan/2020 20:33:17

    After a good night's sleep, it strikes me that the building is an unusual design. Hipped roof on the left side and gabled on the right, with a porch not centred. As if it was trying to look like an unplanned village terrace. A large hall with perfect acoustics behind. The "3 Ps" story goes right back to 1874, a Daily Telegraph article reprinted in 1877 via Trove (before this building) - trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/13389866

    .... Bessbrook has 4000 inhabitants, many of whom are too young for labour in the mill. One penny for each child is paid weekly by the parents for schooling. There is a shop of every necessary kind in the place there is a temperance hotel, but there is no house licensed for the sale of beer or spirits. It is also a boast of Bessbrook that the pawn-office is neither known nor missed in those prudent precincts, and, more wonderful yet, there is no police station. The village square has an old-fashioned Flemish look about it, quaintly mingled with freshness, for indeed all hereabout is as good as new. Flowers there are in abundance, and a farm supplies the village with all kinds of food. The elder Mr Richardson who founded Bessbrook, is a considerable landowner in the neighbourhood and the very road leading to his industrial establishment is private property, made and maintained at his own expense. An old Quaker family is this which has quietly and unostentatiously made Bessbrook. About two thirds of the people employed in the mill are residents of the village, and, as I have already intimated, they are of different creeds or sects, worshipping according to their conscience, and bound only in one thing, which is to educate their children. ...

  • profile

    BeachcomberAustralia

    • 15/Jan/2020 20:43:33

    What is with the Union flags? Something to do with the (delayed) coronation?

  • profile

    O Mac

    • 15/Jan/2020 23:21:02

    In the Belfast and Ulster Towns directory of 1910 the building is referred to as Institute Town Hall and Reading Rooms. inc lending library. www.libraryireland.com/UlsterDirectory1910/Bessbrook.php

  • profile

    suckindeesel

    • 15/Jan/2020 23:37:17

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/beachcomberaustralia Looks like it's just due to wind, but is there a symbolic meaning to a furled flag? Father Abram J. Ryan expresses his feelings in, “The Conquered Banner,” a poem written mere weeks after the Confederacy surrendered: Furl that banner, softly, slowly, Treat it gently – it is holy – For it droops above the dead; Touch it not, unfold it never, Let it droop there, furled forever, For its people’s hopes are dead

  • profile

    suckindeesel

    • 16/Jan/2020 14:36:49

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/beachcomberaustralia Only one is a Union Jack, don't recognise the other one.

  • profile

    suckindeesel

    • 16/Jan/2020 23:52:28

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/beachcomberaustralia Didn't originally see all the other flags, perhaps as a sign of respect for the unwell king, just as likely as a sign of their support for the Union. They do like their flags up there..

  • profile

    BeachcomberAustralia

    • 17/Jan/2020 08:11:46

    [https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]] I think they were expecting a coronation with all those flags. You could say that it is Coronation Street! Too much information ... "... Edward's coronation had originally been scheduled for 26 June 1902. However, two days before he was diagnosed with appendicitis.[72] The disease was generally not treated operatively. It carried a high mortality rate, but developments in anaesthesia and antisepsis in the preceding 50 years made life-saving surgery possible.[73] Sir Frederick Treves, with the support of Lord Lister, performed a then-radical operation of draining a pint of pus from the infected abscess through a small incision (through ​4 1⁄2-inch thickness of belly fat and abdomen wall); this outcome showed thankfully that the cause was not cancer.[74] The next day, Edward was sitting up in bed, smoking a cigar.[75] Two weeks later, it was announced that he was out of danger. Treves was honoured with a baronetcy (which the King had arranged before the operation)[76] and appendix surgery entered the medical mainstream.[73] Edward was crowned at Westminster Abbey on 9 August 1902 by the 80-year-old Archbishop of Canterbury, Frederick Temple, who died only four months later. ..." From - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_VII#Accession Does the vegetation and grass look June-ish?

  • profile

    suckindeesel

    • 18/Jan/2020 10:53:59

    It certainly has a summer look to it, the people are wearing light clothes and at least one has bare arms. The many flags flying coupled with the news of the King's illness all tie in with a suddenly postponed coronation

  • profile

    suckindeesel

    • 19/Jan/2020 13:48:40

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/beachcomberaustralia And that was the inspiration for Listerine mouth wash. I think June, perhaps July, 1902 has to be the date. That is the story that the picture tells us.