All fall down...

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Where: Unknown

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When: 31 December 1913

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There is something winterish and depressing about todays image from Arthur Henri. Dull and misty atmosphere and a crop that looks as though it has been burned by the frost and is now wilted would not cheer one up? Dangan, Thomastown is the place and we even have a date but what else is there to find out about this?

Photographer: A. H. Poole

Collection: Poole Photographic Collection, Waterford

Date: Wednesday, 31 December 1913

NLI Ref: POOLEWP 2523

You can also view this image, and many thousands of others, on the NLI’s catalogue at catalogue.nli.ie

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Owner: National Library of Ireland on The Commons
Source: Flickr Commons
Views: 4238
ahpoole arthurhenripoole glassnegative nationallibraryofireland dangan thomastown house crop gardens wilted poolephotographiccollection wednesday december 1913 1910s kilkenny leinster ireland walsh 20thcentury

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    BeachcomberAustralia

    • 21/Jan/2021 08:56:06

    31 December 1913 was a Wednesday. The house looks great - catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000592971 Mr R. Walsh and family/friends about to slaughter the wildlife - catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000592968 catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000592969

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    sharon.corbet

    • 21/Jan/2021 10:58:27

    I think this is Dangan House as marked on the 25" OSI Map. However, there don't seem to be any suitable R. Walsh(e)s in the area in the census.

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    John Spooner

    • 21/Jan/2021 11:20:21

    A lengthy account of the Kilkenny Hunt Ball in the Kilkenny Moderator on Saturday 07 February 1914 lists Mr and Mrs Walsh of Dangan House among those present. By 23rd September 1914, A. M. Hall-Dare Esq of Dangan House is named in th Kilkenny Moderator as Secretary, County Kilkenny Branch of the British Red Cross Society.

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    suckindeesel

    • 21/Jan/2021 12:01:58

    Can our "agricultural correspondent" name the crop?

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    Bernard Healy

    • 21/Jan/2021 12:52:36

    Just to confuse things further - from a list of inscriptions in Thomastown Cemeteries: thomastownparish.ie/our-parish/memorials-of-the-dead/in-m... Clarke: In loving memory of Florence Clarke Dangan House Thomastown, born 10th October 1891, died 17th January 1969. Also Charles Felix Clarke O.B.E. Born 13th December 1888 died 17th September 1977. [St Mary’s] Anyway, the Hall-Dare surname makes me think that this is Dangan House in 1911: www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Kilkenny/Thomas... The Head of Household is Arthur M Hall-Dare, a retired ranch owner (at age 43) There's an account (and childhood picture) of him given on this page tambent.com/2018/01/05/my-dear-people-friday-24th-februar... Arthur Mildmay Hall-Dare was born on 11 October 1867. Mabel’s nephew, he was the son of Mabel’s brother Robert Westley Hall-Dare and Caroline Susan Henrietta Newton. He was educated at Eton College, Windsor, Berkshire, England. He married Edith Clare Fitzherbert, daughter of Henry Gorry Fitzherbert and Mary Emily Vansittart, on 8 July 1897. He lived at Cliff, Rathfarnham, County Dublin, Ireland and Dangan, Thomastown, County Kilkenny, Ireland. The couple had three children: Irene Clare Hall-Dare (b. 4 Aug 1898); Lt.-Col. Derrick Arthur Hall-Dare (b. 4 Dec 1900 – d. Jan 1985); Ena Mildred Hall-Dare (b. 29 Aug 1905). He died on 31 May 1941 at age 73. Back in 1863, the Journal of the Kilkenny and South-East of Ireland Archaeological Society lists as a member James Morrin of Dangan House & the Rolls Office, Dublin. So where do the Walshes come in? Based on what [https://www.flickr.com/photos/johnspooner] has written, they seemed to have overlapped with the Hall-Dares in Dangan. Were they relations? I've had a look at the Hall-Dares in the civil records and I can't see any marriage to a Walsh. Here's a link to a satelite view of Dangan House today - it should be fairly easy to see where the photo was taken from: www.google.ie/maps/place/Dangan+House,+Dangan,+Thomastown...

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    Carol Maddock

    • 21/Jan/2021 12:58:11

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected] In a wild stab at trying to get the job of Agricultural Correspondent, I'm throwing tobacco into the ring...

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    suckindeesel

    • 21/Jan/2021 13:09:35

    I would never have guessed tobacco, but it does look like the crop. However, tobacco cultivation in Ireland appears to have been banned by Westminster around 1831. It was common in Wexford due to climate [inishindiegardenmatters.blogspot.com/2016/03/tobacco-grow...]

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    cargeofg

    • 21/Jan/2021 13:13:17

    To me it looks like fodder/forage rape. Farmers around here(Wales) grow it and allow sheep to strip graze it. This could have been grown and fed to pigs. There looks to be a few heads of cabbages in the row behind. www.flickr.com/photos/internetarchivebookimages/199324328...

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    DannyM8

    • 21/Jan/2021 13:31:40

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/ What's that woman smoking?

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    Carol Maddock

    • 21/Jan/2021 13:35:43

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected] This was Waterford in 1933... https://www.flickr.com/photos/nlireland/10605481795/ And https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected] , how very dare you? So, am I the new agricultural correspondent? Am I? I don't expect a salary. I'll do it for the glory... :)

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    sharon.corbet

    • 21/Jan/2021 14:07:31

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/bernardhealy Walsh doesn't really fit with the other surnames associated with the Hall-Dare family, all right. They seem more "Protestant/posh" as you put it in another context the other day. If it weren't for the mention of them in the newspaper article, I would assume that he might be the butler or other servant who arranged the photos for Hall-Dare. But I can't see a servant being at the Hunt Ball.

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    Bernard Healy

    • 21/Jan/2021 14:39:04

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/scorbet Yup... I've been trying to think what's going on and can't quite figure it out. 1. Perhaps they were guests of the Hall-Dares. Perhaps part of the family. However, no evidence to back that up. 2. Perhaps R Walsh was a sufficently senior member of the household staff that would see him at the hunt ball - if Dangan House were a more prominent landed estate, I'd imagine that there might be something like an Estate Manager or something of the sort with enough importance and social position to be at the Hunt Ball. However, there's no evidence in the 1911 Census suggesting that Dangan House was big enough to justify that kind of staff position.

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    sharon.corbet

    • 21/Jan/2021 15:00:04

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/bernardhealy I double-checked the Hunt Ball article, and the Hall-Dares are not mentioned, just Mr. & Mrs. Walsh, Dangan House. It's in a listing of "Amongst those present", so I'm sure they would have left out staff. The other option that comes to mind is that the Walshs rented the house for the hunting season. I'll have a look later if I can find the Hall-Dares resident somewhere else in the winter of 1913/4.

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    suckindeesel

    • 21/Jan/2021 17:02:19

    Yes, in 1933, after Dev decided to reintroduce it as a cash crop. Hemp was also grown in the 19th century, for rope making, of course. Apparently before the 1831 ban, much of the tobacco smoked in Ireland was Irish grown. I must admit that it does look a lot like tobacco.

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    BeachcomberAustralia

    • 21/Jan/2021 19:59:20

    My initial thought 11 hours ago was that Mr Poole was interested in the plants because they were tobacco. You would not trudge through a muddy field on New Year's Eve to photograph a cabbage patch, would you?

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    suckindeesel

    • 21/Jan/2021 22:40:23

    I was mistaken in thinking that tobacco growing was prohibited until the formation of the Free State.

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    suckindeesel

    • 21/Jan/2021 22:44:24

    Tobacco growing was introduced again in the first decade of the 20th century, so our photo could be of a tobacco crop. However, is mid-winter to late for a harvest?

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    derangedlemur

    • 22/Jan/2021 06:53:33

    (To the tune of Frere Jacques) Life is butter Life is butter Melon cauliflower Melon cauliflower Life is butter melon Life is butter melon Cauliflower Cauliflower

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    BeachcomberAustralia

    • 22/Jan/2021 07:16:55

    Neil Diamond's favourite smoothie - swede carrot lime ...

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    National Library of Ireland on The Commons

    • 22/Jan/2021 08:34:52

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/beachcomberaustralia Aaaaaaargh! That song will never sound the same again!

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    sharon.corbet

    • 22/Jan/2021 11:09:08

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/bernardhealy I did have a look for Hall-Dares, but didn't find them elsewhere. (Which still doesn't rule it out of course.)

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    Bernard Healy

    • 22/Jan/2021 11:31:20

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/scorbet So far as I can tell, they also had a residence in Rathfarnham/Ballyboden called variously Cliff/Cliff House/Cliff Lodge(?) but I haven't figured out if they moved there AFTER living in Thomastown or if it was a house they already had. I'm going to drop out of chasing them any further. I've spent too much time on this already.

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    suckindeesel

    • 23/Jan/2021 21:20:45

    Some dates from the history of the house [homepage.eircom.net/~lawekk/HSESD.HTM] all before our time period May still stand? DANGAN. C1735 – Deane, Dangan, Co Kilkenny. [Kings Inn] 1738 Christopher Hewetson, Dangan. [Oss Wills] 14.4.1770 Amyas Hewetson Esq., of Dangan. [FLJ] 13.6.1776 John Davis, Dangan, gent. [Rod 316.138.210320] 27.5.1777 John Davis of Dangan, gent. [Rod 314.252.213265] 1783 To let house & demesne of Rosbercon, Co Kilkenny, 17a where Thomas Davis lived, apply Lamphier or J Davis, Dangan, Thomastown. [FLJ 15.2.1783] 30.8.1786 To let, house & demesne of Dangan, 50a, on bank of Nore. 16 mile of Waterford, 9 of Ross and Kilkenny. Apply Mr John Nixon, Dangan near Thomastown. [FLJ] 24.2.1787 To let, house & demesne of Dangan, proposals to Mr Nixon at Dangan near Thomastown. [FLJ] 29.9.1821 Sydenham Davis, Dangan, game cert. [Mod] 1824 Sydenham Davis Esq., Dangan, Thomastown. [Pigot] 1836 Sydenham Davis, Dangan. [Mod 27.4.1836] 1837 P Cantwell, Dangan. [Mod 4.10.1837] 1837 Sydenham Davis, Dangan. [Mod 9.12.1837] 23.10.1841 Sydenham Davis Esq., Dangan. [KJnl] 16.7.1853 Sale at Dangan near Thomastown for exors of Sydenham Davis. [Kjnl] 1854 John Lawson Esq., moving from Butler House to Dangan House. [Jnl 7.6.1854] 18.8.1855 Proposals for raising and roofing Dangan House, Thomastown. [Mod] 31.1.1857 John Lawson, solicitor, Dangan. [Mod] 1873 Sydenham W Davis, Dangan House. [Mod 18.6.1873] 1876 Peter Cantwell, Dangan, Thomastown, 177a. [Land] 1993 Dangan, simple early C19th three bay two storey house, rendered, 1 mile S of Thomastown. 19.S.59.41. [KK Dev Plan]