In their death they were not divided.

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Where: Munster, Clare, Ireland

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When: Unknown

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Lots of people visit graveyards to look at the headstones and to learn about those who have passed before us. This grave would be of immediate interest to them. It is nothing special until you realise that the two people it holds died on the same day, a husband and wife. There is also the rather cryptic message "Lovely and pleasant in their lives and in their death they were not divided" which asks many more questions than it answers!

Photographer: Robert French

Collection: Lawrence Photograph Collection

Date: Circa 1865 - 1914 1897 - 1902

NLI Ref: L_ROY_05598

You can also view this image, and many thousands of others, on the NLI’s catalogue at catalogue.nli.ie

Info:

Owner: National Library of Ireland on The Commons
Source: Flickr Commons
Views: 2435
robertfrench williamlawrence lawrencecollection lawrencephotographicstudio thelawrencephotographcollection glassnegative nationallibraryofireland killaloe munster clare coclare ireland grave church wynne theodosia frederick richards susan frederickrichardswynne theodosiasusanwynne bishop november3rd1896 1896 graveyard headstone flannan oratory

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  • profile

    BeachcomberAustralia

    • 15/Jul/2021 07:28:31

    Another Wynne Wynne situation ! The original quote is from 2 Samuel 1:23 - "Saul and Jonathan were lovely and pleasant in their lives, And in their death they were not divided: They were swifter than eagles, They were stronger than lions. See - www.bible.com/bible/12/2SA.1.23.ASV

  • profile

    BeachcomberAustralia

    • 15/Jul/2021 07:33:34

    Via Trove, she died "within an hour" later - trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/108210203 [https://www.flickr.com/photos/beachcomberaustralia/51311845832/in/dateposted/] Evening News Sydney Thursday 05/11/1896 page 5

  • profile

    National Library of Ireland on The Commons

    • 15/Jul/2021 07:35:18

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/beachcomberaustralia Wynne Wynne, seriously? ;-)

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    Niall McAuley

    • 15/Jul/2021 08:14:20

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/beachcomberaustralia We need a Boo! Hiss! Get off the stage! button.

  • profile

    sharon.corbet

    • 15/Jul/2021 08:39:48

    I found an Irish Times article, and the story is a bit more complicated than the Sydney Evening News makes it out. To paraphrase, the Bishop and his wife were in Dublin because Mrs Wynne was ill. She had an operation, and her condition initially seemed favorable, however, on the Monday night she began to get worse. In the end, her husband went to fetch the doctor (about a mile away). The Bishop left the doctor's house to return, with the doctor a few minutes behind him, however, the Bishop never arrived at the house that he and his wife were staying at. The Bishop was later found unconscious on the footpath, and died before being brought into the house. His wife was not told, but succumbed a few hours later from her symptoms.

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    suckindeesel

    • 15/Jul/2021 08:55:48

    St. Flannan's Cathedral Graveyard, Killaloe, Co. Clare www.clarelibrary.ie/eolas/coclare/genealogy/don_tran/grav... "In Loving Memory of Frederick Richards Wynne D.D., Bishop of Killaloe 1893 to 1896, who died November 3rd 1896 aged 69 years. And of Theodosia Susan his wife, who died November 3rd 1896 aged 59 years. Loving and pleasant in their lives and in their death they were not divided."

  • profile

    National Library of Ireland on The Commons

    • 15/Jul/2021 08:59:13

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/scorbet Rather different indeed! It remindes me of the old anecdote of a message passed along a group of soldiers in the trenches. Message sent - Send reinforcements. We are going to advance. Message received - Send three and fourpence. We are going to a dance.

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    National Library of Ireland on The Commons

    • 15/Jul/2021 09:03:14

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected] Thank you, map updated.

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    BeachcomberAustralia

    • 15/Jul/2021 09:04:13

    [https://www.flickr.com/photos/scorbet] What a sad story. It must have captured victorian melodramatic imaginations, including Mr French. How about this as a reverse streetview? That small chapel(?) on the right, the cross, and the gate lintel stone. There is an AIB bank behind which looks as if it is not yet built in the photograph - might provide a latest date - goo.gl/maps/2Ehzwf3xg45iQ35QA Edit - earlier streetview shows the little lancet window - goo.gl/maps/ZxUHcaCpRmGgzNyS7

  • profile

    National Library of Ireland on The Commons

    • 15/Jul/2021 09:06:19

    Date has to be 1896 or later, the leaves on the grave suggest Autumn, perhaps Autumn 1897? https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected] https://www.flickr.com/photos/scorbet https://www.flickr.com/photos/gnmcauley https://www.flickr.com/photos/beachcomberaustralia

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    cargeofg

    • 15/Jul/2021 09:18:56

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/nlireland Looking at the leaves some of them are sycamore. Sycamore root and grow easy. There is also a small sapling growing inside the kerb surround. If it is growing and not a twig like the one laying outside the kerb fallen from the nearby trees. I would suggest that sapling is at least 3 years old.

  • profile

    cargeofg

    • 15/Jul/2021 09:25:23

    Link to the current Diocese of Limerick and Killaloe. limerick.anglican.org/

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    sharon.corbet

    • 15/Jul/2021 09:25:52

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/nlireland Yet another Irish Times article, this time from April 23rd 1897, says that the monument was placed "in the last few days". The base is limestone, the pedestals and cross, Sicilian marble, and the curbstones chiseled limestone. The monument was manufactured by Mr. J. Pearce, sculptor, Dublin and erected by Mr. M. Niall of the Killaloe Marble Works.

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    National Library of Ireland on The Commons

    • 15/Jul/2021 09:26:32

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected] I like the logic!

  • profile

    sharon.corbet

    • 15/Jul/2021 09:28:04

    (I suspect J. Pearce may actually be J. Pearse, as in Patrick and Willie's father.)

  • profile

    BeachcomberAustralia

    • 15/Jul/2021 09:29:36

    Flickr is sometimes amazing! In 2015 via https://www.flickr.com/photos/lindybuckley/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/lindybuckley/19306306885/ Oratory, ca. 1100

  • profile

    National Library of Ireland on The Commons

    • 15/Jul/2021 09:30:10

    [https://www.flickr.com/photos/beachcomberaustralia] AIB bank could be the Provincial Bank built in 1901. Which would tie in with what [https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]] had to say. I will go with a date of 1987 1897 to 1901, with an open mind should we be presented with new evidence.

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    sharon.corbet

    • 15/Jul/2021 09:32:37

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/nlireland I think 1897 might be a bit more likely 😄

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    National Library of Ireland on The Commons

    • 15/Jul/2021 09:39:26

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/scorbet It might! I remember https://www.flickr.com/photos/bernardhealy commenting recently that it was (is) common to leave a grave to settle for 6 months before erecting a headstone, which would tie in with the date of your Irish Times piece

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    National Library of Ireland on The Commons

    • 15/Jul/2021 09:48:07

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/scorbet I do remember that you identified Pearse as the sculptor of this cross. https://www.flickr.com/photos/nlireland/16578581118

  • profile

    BeachcomberAustralia

    • 15/Jul/2021 10:03:16

    Fascinated by that very old Oratory. Via https://www.flickr.com/photos/lindybuckley/ again, the inside -https://www.flickr.com/photos/lindybuckley/19306267335

  • profile

    O Mac

    • 15/Jul/2021 10:20:05

    National Library of Ireland on The Commons re your "three and fourpence"...... is it not a spoonerism rather than an anecdote? or can an spoonerism also be an anecdote? I suppose John Spooner would know.

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    Bernard Healy

    • 15/Jul/2021 10:39:33

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/nlireland I always heard 1 year in my part of Kerry, but it wouldn't surprise me if there were different customs elsewhere. I know that for some families in the travelling community the one year anniversary is seen as the best time to BLESS a new headstone, so obviously the erection has to happen shortly before the 1 year mark. BTW, I was wondering of any of the rest of you ever heard of the custom of introducting deliberate mistakes - usually connected to the age of the deceased - on coffin plates? It's something I heard once, but haven't come across since. It was explained to me that it was bad luck to put a deceased's correct age on their coffin plate.

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    Niall McAuley

    • 15/Jul/2021 10:43:37

    Immediately before in the catalogue is the nearby Lakeside Hotel, whose website says: Originally built in 1894, The Lakeside Hotel is an intrinsic part of the local landscape and history. Immediately after is Dalkey, which we dated to 1894-1902, consistent with todays propsed range. General View, Dalkey, Co. Dublin

  • profile

    National Library of Ireland on The Commons

    • 15/Jul/2021 10:48:42

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected] I await the verdict of the Judge! https://www.flickr.com/photos/johnspooner

  • profile

    Bernard Healy

    • 15/Jul/2021 11:03:10

    Here we see their death records on the same page of the register: civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/death...

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    National Library of Ireland on The Commons

    • 15/Jul/2021 11:07:53

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/bernardhealy Interesting that Theodosia is listed as a Widow a title she only held for a few hours.

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    BeachcomberAustralia

    • 15/Jul/2021 11:14:55

    A walk around the Oratory and graveyard in 2011. Look out for the ghost of Mr French and his trusty tripod at 1:26 - youtu.be/wC2xyatXOcg

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    sharon.corbet

    • 15/Jul/2021 11:16:06

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/nlireland I also notice that her place of death is "10 Waterloo Road" while his is just plain "Waterloo Road", which again matches with the IT article,

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    Bernard Healy

    • 15/Jul/2021 11:26:23

    [https://www.flickr.com/photos/scorbet] I tried to find out more about 10 Waterloo Road. The 1892 & 1912 Thoms Directories list "The Misses Widdup" as either owners or occupants. The 1901 Census only turns up these two - living in Kingstown. www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Dublin/Kingstow... I'm not entirely sure what their occuptation is. Their death certs descrive them as being of "Independent Means" and shows Mary Julia dying at 10 Waterloo Road in 1917.

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    Bernard Healy

    • 15/Jul/2021 11:30:20

    Oh, and here's the marriage record of another Widdup with address at 10 Waterloo Road - the wonderfully named Zoila Kathleen Mary Widdup, daughter of a doctor. civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marri... Her husband died in the Great War: kingscollections.org/warmemorials/st-thomas-hospital/memo...

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    sharon.corbet

    • 15/Jul/2021 12:29:52

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/bernardhealy The Bishop and his wife were staying there for the 2 weeks while they were up in Dublin, from what I could see - it's not entirely clear in the IT article whether they had rented the house, or if it was owned by them - their son (the Rev. Arthur) was living in Molesworth St., and was Curate of St. Ann's. (The operation took place in 10 Waterloo Road too, which I still find weird.)

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    Niall McAuley

    • 15/Jul/2021 14:22:19

    Streetview of 10 Waterloo Road

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    Niall McAuley

    • 15/Jul/2021 14:29:39

    Elizabeth Widdup in the 1911 census in 10 Waterloo Road.

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    Bernard Healy

    • 15/Jul/2021 15:27:39

    Sharon Corbet I get the sense that hospitals were primarily for the poor back then. People of standing had the surgeon come to them.

  • profile

    catb -

    • 15/Jul/2021 19:04:05

    And in 2017 . . . www.flickr.com/photos/catb/49548080667/in/photolist-2iunF...

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    suckindeesel

    • 15/Jul/2021 20:47:47

    [https://www.flickr.com/photos/nlireland] The 25" of 1902, arcg.is/0S9eD8 , doesn't show a bank in the location of the current AIB. The 1901 date may be when the contract with the architect was drawn up. This may extend the end date by at least another year.

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    silverio10

    • 15/Jul/2021 21:30:16

    Buenas fotos antiguas .

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    National Library of Ireland on The Commons

    • 15/Jul/2021 21:38:22

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected] Noted. Thanks, Mary