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Where: Latium, Rome, Italy

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To end the week we have yet another visit to the Collection of photographs from the late President of Ireland, Seán T. O'Kelly. We have a group of very distinguished looking clerics, four ladies and some gentlemen wearing decorations of some sort. The one name we can be sure of is that of Count Plunkett at the right front of the group (left front as he is sitting). Can we name any of the others and what might have been the occasion. Perhaps they are not so much clerics as an early form of "Steampunk"?

Sounding the People Identified and Date Established and Location Identifed Klaxons. Excellent detective work on this one.

Photographer: Unknown

Collection: Sean T O'Kelly Photographic Collection

Date: ~~Circa 1950~~ May 1920

NLI Ref.: NPA OKE/22

You can also view this image, and many thousands of others, on the NLI’s catalogue at catalogue.nli.ie

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Owner: National Library of Ireland on The Commons
Source: Flickr Commons
Views: 4224

thenationallibraryofireland nationalphotographicarchive nli photograph theseántoceallaighphotographiccollection groupphotograph clerics bishops countplunkett peopleidentified locationidentified laurenceoneill lordmayorofdublin beatificationofoliverplunkett beatification oliverplunkett countessplunkett artobrien seántokelly seántóceallaigh johnharty catholicarchbishopofcashel dateestablished

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ɹǝqɯoɔɥɔɐǝq
- 07/Jul/2023 07:55:19
Evidently people used to say “prunes” instead of “cheese” when being photographed. PRUNES !
suckindeesel
- 07/Jul/2023 07:58:33
Order of the Holy Sepulchre???? Just wild guess
O Mac
- 07/Jul/2023 08:20:41
Count George Noble Plunkett died March 12th 1948 aged 96... photograph taken a good few years previous! ..catalogue says ca:1920
Niall McAuley
- 07/Jul/2023 09:30:33
Image searches give back nothing, nada, zero hits.
Niall McAuley
- 07/Jul/2023 09:31:36
I recognize 2nd row, 2nd from right, seen here previously in Paris and London. Art O'Briain: Is that beardy lad beside him the same Fintan Murphy as in this one? (guessed at 1919-20)
Niall McAuley
- 07/Jul/2023 10:26:20
O'Kelly was envoy for the generally unrecognized Irish Republic in Paris in 1919, and visited Rome in 1920. Art O'Briain was envoy in London 1919-24. Plunkett was Minister for Foreign Affairs 1919-21. I would not be surprised if this photo is in Paris or London.
suckindeesel
- 07/Jul/2023 11:02:54
Centre front row “John Mary Harty (11 August 1867 – 11 September 1946) served as Roman Catholic Archbishop of Cashel from 1913 until his death in 1946” wiki2.org/en/John_Harty_(bishop)
suckindeesel
- 07/Jul/2023 11:25:24
Anything to do with the Eucharistic Congress of Dublin 1932 Getting desperate now
Carol Maddock
- 07/Jul/2023 11:27:15
I'm wildly and recklessly throwing my hat into the ring, and suggesting this was to do with the Beatification of Oliver Plunkett in May 1920. Off in search of evidence now. Hoping not to slink back empty-handed...
Carol Maddock
- 07/Jul/2023 13:07:28
Infuriatingly, there are tons (technical term) of newspaper articles about the Beatification in Rome on 23 May 1920, but sadly, no photos of this specific group, although there are many descriptions of Seán T. O'Kelly's reception. And Count Plunkett was deffo there, as was Laurence O'Neill, Lord Mayor of Dublin.
AN IRISH GATHERING Cardinal Logue Attends Reception by Mr. Sean T. O'Kelly A Reuter's telegram received yesterday, says:- Mr. John O'Kelly, the "Diplomatic Extraordinary Delegate of the Irish Republic", gave a reception to all the Irish in Rome on the occasion of the Beatification of Oliver Plunket. Those present at the gathering included Cardinal Logue, many Irish Bishops, and other prominent Irishmen, all the students of the Irish College, Monsignor Hanna, Archbishop of San Francisco, and Monsignor Ahern, Rector of the American College. Cardinal Logue stated this was the first time Irishmen in Rome had attended a gathering of the Irish Republic. The "Daily Mail's" Rome correspondent says the invitation, which was in French, was in the following terms:- "Mr Sean O'Ceallaigh, the Diplomatic Delegate-Extraordinary of the Government of the Irish Republic, requests your presence to meet Cardinal Logue, the Bishops of Ireland, and the special representatives of the Dáil Eireann, and of the mayoral bodies". (Freeman's Journal, 29 May 1920)
Niall McAuley
- 07/Jul/2023 15:01:46
https://www.flickr.com/photos/47297387@N03 It is a good match, we have O'Kelly, Plunkett, Irish bishops and a special representative (O'Briain). Mayoral bodies is interesting... That could be Laurence O'Neill, mayor of Dublin next to Count Plunkett. Edit: I see Carol noted the same possibility.
National Library of Ireland on The Commons
- 07/Jul/2023 15:03:49
https://www.flickr.com/photos/47297387@N03 Well done. Is the precise location the Irish College Rome?
Carol Maddock
- 07/Jul/2023 15:51:02
https://www.flickr.com/photos/nlireland Ah, now that I don't know. I was so focussed on the dramatis personae that I didn't register locations. I will delve further...
suckindeesel
- 07/Jul/2023 16:07:58
http://www.flickr.com/photos/47290943@N03/ Very likely Rome, as all the action was there. It's not the ratty carpet in Waterford anyway. The Count was from the same bloodline as Oliver, bye the way. Good detective work Carol!
suckindeesel
- 07/Jul/2023 16:55:26
https://flic.kr/p/2oN5gbN Oliver Plunkett's family church and reputed birthplace, Loughcrew Co. Meath
Carol Maddock
- 07/Jul/2023 17:01:10
I browsed the excellent Documents on Irish Foreign Policy hoping to find that O'Kelly might have submitted expenses for his Reception that would give a location for this photo. It seems confirmed this was all about the Beatification, and propaganda for the nascent Irish Republic. Certainly all the right people are being name-checked below. I think the photo may have been taken at the Grand Hotel, Rome, but see what you all think. EDIT: However, Mary above may have been right in suggesting the Irish College in Rome. I should have checked the DIB first, as Patrick Maume records this in his life of Seán T. O'Kelly in the Dictionary of Irish Biography:
On 27 May he staged a reception at the Irish college to mark the beatification of Oliver Plunkett; the attendance of most of the Irish bishops at this reception was widely regarded as a semi-formal recognition of O'Kelly's position as representative of the Irish republic.
It's more plausible that a photographer would be better able to herd all of these notables together at the reception there. Anyway, here're some bits of the Foreign Affairs reports and letters about the whole extravaganza... From Donal Hales, Irish consul in Italy to Michael Collins in Dublin, 5 June 1920:
I came down to Rome as requested just in time to be present at the beatification of that strong and sainted man Oliver Plunkett, victim like many another good man of English calumny and hypocrisy. I made the acquaintance of many Irishmen and met some of our Minister friends who seemed to enjoy their visit to the eternal city immensely. The weather was certainly too hot to be agreeable. Mr O'Kelly was not in very good form and seemed to be somewhat changed since I met him at Genoa. Hales is being unfair here. O'Kelly had been seriously ill for a long time, and was not fully recovered in May/June 1920. Mr Arthur O'Brien, a very sympathetic gentleman, has given me a message from you, which shall be attended to. ... At the reception at the Grand Hotel I met the bishops of Cork, Limerick, Killaloe, etc. and the Cardinal Logue who is becoming very feeble. Some of the bishops are thorough Irishmen and decidedly in favour of a completely independent Irish Republic. I had a conversation with Dr Fogarty who is perhaps one of the strongest men of the hierarchy. ... I enjoyed the trip to the Eternal City and was pleased to have an occasion of making so many distinguished acquaintances including Count and Countess Plunkett.
From a Dáil report on Foreign Affairs, June 1920 (uncertain who "I" is):
On the occasion of the beatification of Blessed Oliver Plunkett, a delegation consisting of Count O'Byrne, Professor Stockley and Art O'Brien and I as a member of the Ministry went to Rome on behalf of the Dail to represent the Government of the Republic at the beatification ceremonies. Sean T. O'Kelly and Mr. D. Hales also took part in the delegation. The effect of this official visit was very useful and was of great assistance in counteracting a very strong British campaign which was for some time being carried on in Vatican circles.
Seán T. wrote to Arthur Griffith from the Grand Hotel, Rome on 18 June 1920:
P.S. I paid the Hotel expenses of Mr. and Mrs. Stockley, Count O'Byrne and Art O'Brien - at least so far as their residence here in this hotel was concerned. Their other expenses will I presume be met by H.Q. None of the other delegates who came here raised this subject with me so I only paid hotel expenses for the above-mentioned. S.T. O'C.
National Library of Ireland on The Commons
- 07/Jul/2023 18:50:33
https://www.flickr.com/photos/47297387@N03 I suppose one of the ladies in the front row could be the Duchess? My money is on the lady nearest the Count.
silverio10
- 07/Jul/2023 20:12:00
Buenas fotos antiguas .
Carol Maddock
- 07/Jul/2023 20:17:52
[https://www.flickr.com/photos/nlireland] My money is on the woman with the big hair and pince nez, second from left on front row.
turgidson
- 07/Jul/2023 21:52:10
The fella at the centre back with the tache looks like a cross between Ron Mael from Sparks and Edgar Allan Poe.
National Library of Ireland on The Commons
- 08/Jul/2023 09:50:45
[https://www.flickr.com/photos/47297387@N03] I think your money is on the winner, there is a photo of the Countess a little over half way down this page from Éireann Ascendant. Don't forget to add your well-deserved note on the face of the photo.
National Library of Ireland on The Commons
- 08/Jul/2023 09:52:02
https://www.flickr.com/photos/turgidson I see where you are coming from. Mary
Carol Maddock
- 09/Jul/2023 12:11:52
https://www.flickr.com/photos/nlireland Will do, guv.
suckindeesel
- 09/Jul/2023 16:51:12
That guy with the intense stare, front row left, could be Silas from the Da Vinci Code
National Library of Ireland on The Commons
- 09/Jul/2023 18:38:54
https://www.flickr.com/photos/184711311@N04 Very good.
Bernard Healy
- 10/Jul/2023 15:35:17
I can identify at least one other character in the photograph. The priest at the extreme left of the front row was Monsignor John Hagan, appointed Rector of the Irish College in Rome in 1919. He was a buddy of De Valera's and a strong nationalist. I studied in the Irish College in Rome and I recognose him from his portrait. The photo was likely taken at the former premises of the Irish Collegem attached to the church of S'Agata dei Goti in the centre of Rome. The whole set-up looks very like the kind of improvised theatre that one might find used for amateur dramatics in a seminary. I think I also recognise one other priest - the guy at the back left could be Hagan's deputy, Fr Michael Curran, Vice-Rector of the College.
Bernard Healy
- 10/Jul/2023 15:50:01
The bishop in the middle of the 2nd row is surely Bishop Fogarty of Killaloe. The identity of the other two bishops escape me - they don't look like the then-incumbents of Cork or Limerick.
Bernard Healy
- 10/Jul/2023 17:12:34
Tentative identification of another bishop as being Bishop Charles O'Sullivan, Kerry. He resembles a portrait I've seen of him.
National Library of Ireland on The Commons
- 10/Jul/2023 17:21:02
https://www.flickr.com/photos/bernardhealy Thanks Bernard, well done. Mary
Bernard Healy
- 10/Jul/2023 17:31:00
[https://www.flickr.com/photos/nlireland] One last tenative identification - the last remaining bishop looks very like Bishop MacRory of Down and Connor, later Cardinal MacRory of Armagh. A curious fact - Sean T O'Kelly was a guest in the Irish College as he had a bout of ill-health lasting several weeks before the beatification. He wrote an account of his time in Rome which is in the papers of Mons Hagan in the Irish College. repository.library.georgetown.edu/handle/10822/1076012 He mentions the bishops who arrived earliest for the beatification - Fogarty, O'Sullivan & MacRory. I would suggest that this MIGHT not be the night of the big reception at the Grand Hotel, but rather an earlier gathering at the Irish College. O'Kelly mentions in his account that there were any number of dinners & social occasions around the time of the beatification.
National Library of Ireland on The Commons
- 10/Jul/2023 18:08:46
Thank you.
National Library of Ireland on The Commons
- 10/Jul/2023 19:41:16
https://www.flickr.com/photos/bernardhealy The Georgetown document is a great read. Thank you for referencing it.