"Chapel building ... in an unknown location" = Castletownbere!

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Where: Cork, Ireland

Try to find the spot where the photographer was standing.

When: 01 January 1908

Try to find the date or year when this image was made.
It's Fergus Friday! Another one of our "unknown location" Fergus O'Connor photos despatched with ease by our indefatigable researchers (see comments below). Thanks to them, we now know this photo was taken at Castletownbere, Co. Cork.

Date: 1908

NLI Ref.: OCO 348

Info:

Owner: National Library of Ireland on The Commons
Source: Flickr Commons
Views: 24330
chapel church cork ireland munster scaffolding granite presbytery romancatholic workmen masons fergusoconnor fergusoconnorcollection glassnegative castletownbere robertkelly builder contractor nationallibraryofireland locationidentified peopleidentified

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    National Library of Ireland on The Commons

    • 29/Jun/2012 08:13:49

    Heading off to final day of conference. Wireless permitting, I'll check in to see if there are cries of distress and ye want a helpful hint... :)

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    Niall McAuley

    • 29/Jun/2012 08:16:53

    I know, I know, miss, miss, miss pick me!

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    mogey

    • 29/Jun/2012 08:37:29

    No idea where it is, but judging by the scaffolding to the left and right of the chapel I would say a new church is being is being built behind and the church at the front was probably demolished

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    DannyM8

    • 29/Jun/2012 08:44:56

    I think we may be back in Castletownbere again

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    DannyM8

    • 29/Jun/2012 08:50:06

    If you zoom into the last castletownbere photo you can see this church and also see my note there about the building of the new Church. http://www.flickr.com/photos/nlireland/7419470426/in/photostream You can also see some of the scaffolding poles to the left of the church in this photo

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    Niall McAuley

    • 29/Jun/2012 08:54:28

    And behind the old chapel on the right, you can see the Mercy Convent school up on the hill. Datewise, various sources say the new church was built in 1912. The DIA says the foundation stone was laid in 1907: Name: BUTLER, RUDOLF MAXIMILIAN Building: CO. CORK, CASTLETOWNBERE, CHURCH OF THE SACRED HEART (RC) Date: 1907-1911 Nature: Design placed 1st in limited competition. For Canon McDonnell. Contr: Robert Kelly, Bantry. FS laid 22 Aug 1907. £14,000. Built of concrete.

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    Niall McAuley

    • 29/Jun/2012 08:56:59

    The old chapel was built in 1822 according to www.castletownbere.ie/history.html

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    DannyM8

    • 29/Jun/2012 09:00:24

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/mogey http://www.flickr.com/photos/gnmcauley Looks Like they have part built two sides of the new church around the old one.? so some time after the laying of the foundation stone. Also I presume all three Castletownbere related photos were taken on the same day (few days)?

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    Niall McAuley

    • 29/Jun/2012 09:01:02

    The "rubble" looks to be stone being cut for the new church.

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    National Library of Ireland on The Commons

    • 29/Jun/2012 09:04:45

    Absolutely sure?! This one's in the middle of a series of photos in a place that rhymes with Gantry...

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    Niall McAuley

    • 29/Jun/2012 09:13:31

    Certain. Here's the old and new church faded over each other on the OSI 25"map, with the convent school to the left. The photo was taken from roughly the blue x. church

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    DannyM8

    • 29/Jun/2012 09:14:22

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/nlireland You May think Bantry but this is Castletownbere.....

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    National Library of Ireland on The Commons

    • 29/Jun/2012 09:19:19

    I'm happy out then! Thanks a million - will add it to the map once I'm back. Wireless is dyi...

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    Swordscookie

    • 29/Jun/2012 09:20:21

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/nlireland Off conferencing when she should be at work looking after her constituents! I managed to find a lovely shot of St. Finbars Church in Bantry which was built with fine granite stone like the "rubble" up above but I can't find it again. The site seems steeper than the one above but it is a possibility!

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    Niall McAuley

    • 29/Jun/2012 09:22:49

    Finbarr's RC church in Bantry is standing since 1832, with extension works in 1847, says the DIA.

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    CHG PRO PHOTOGRAPHY incorporating the APL archives

    • 29/Jun/2012 09:35:38

    It's worth mentioning at this point that Flickr have today changed their mapping provider for the location maps. I believe the new maps are from Nokia, and that that they are significantly more detailed than the previous type....

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    Niall McAuley

    • 29/Jun/2012 09:44:19

    Here's a crop from the "Horse in a harbour" shot Danny links above, as he says, you can make out scaffolding poles and a crane to the left of the old church: church2

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    Swordscookie

    • 29/Jun/2012 09:50:26

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/gnmcauley Sorry for doubting in any way, I agree that this is the definitive article, the bell tower at the side wall should be prooff enough if any was needed. Well done once again Niall and Danny!

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    Gerry Ward

    • 29/Jun/2012 10:26:47

    A history of the church.

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    Swordscookie

    • 29/Jun/2012 10:40:53

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/gerryward That really copper fastens it Gerry, well done!

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    Niall McAuley

    • 29/Jun/2012 10:42:33

    From http://www.flickr.com/photos/gerryward's history, the foundation stone was in 1907, mass was still celebrated in the old church while the new one went up, the first mass in the new unfinished church was Christmas 1910. We're some way off finished here, with only three walls started. I'd say summer 1908.

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    DannyM8

    • 29/Jun/2012 10:44:44

    A competition open to architects was announced from which a suitable design was to be chosen. From the entries submitted that of Mr RM Butler, FRIBA was declared the winner and his design was accepted. Mr Butler envisaged a much larger building than the old church. It was to have a high tower standing separate from the the main building with a tapering spire reaching far into the sky. It was to stand immediately south of the present nun's choir. The plan for the tower was not persevered with as it was regarded as too expensive. The church was intended for a much larger congregation and this meant that the site occupied by the old building would not suffice; The Sisters of Mercy in the nearby convent came to the rescue and from their property offered sufficient ground to extend the site so that the work could begin. The first task was the clearing of the site offered by the Sisters. There were a number of trees on it which has to be cut down and uprooted and the ground levelled. This work began on 9th April 1907. Granite was to be used in the external facing of the walls of the church. The Mountains of Mourne held the best granite in Ireland and so an order was placed at the quarries of Mr John Rush of Castlewellan, Co. Down, to supply granite which was then transported by sea down the east coast of Ireland round Carnsore Point and along the south coast to Castletown. Work went on under the pastoral eye of Canon McDonnell during the summer months arid in 15th August the Bishop of the diocese, Bishop John Mangan, came to Beara, presided at High Mass in the old church and blessed the foundation stone of the new one. A very practical difficulty now arose as work on the new church progressed. The old church stood on part of the intended site. Eventually it would have to be demolished but it was needed for Sunday Mass until the new one was ready. It is to the credit of the architect and the contractor Mr Robert Kelly of Bantry that the old church was kept intact and Sunday Masses celebrated there while the new one gradually sprung up beside and around it. Progress was slow but certain. By Christmas 1910 the building was nearing completion and on Christmas Day, mass was celebrated for the very first time in the new but as yet unfinished church. Seven more months were to elapse before the building was complete and solemnly dedicated for divine worship. The new church were blessed, formally opened and dedicated to the Sacred Heart on 30th July 1911. The ceremony was carried out with great pomp and splendour. Bishop Mangan presided at the High Mass at which Canon McDonnell was the celebrant. Canon Patrick Hayes, then parish priest of Ballylongford, preached at the ceremony. Canon Hayes was later transferred to Castletownbere and was our parish priest from 1919 until his death in 1925. He is buried in the church grounds. In the course of his sermon Canon Hayes said: "I congratulate Canon McDonnell and his noble flock on this glorious monument of their piety, zeal and self-sacrifice. May this beautiful church be for him and for you the gate that leads to heaven".

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    DannyM8

    • 29/Jun/2012 10:51:36

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/swordscookie http://www.flickr.com/photos/gerryward http://www.flickr.com/photos/gnmcauley Agree Summer 1908 is a good place to start, we should ask http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected] if he can make anything more specific from the shadows etc.

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    DannyM8

    • 29/Jun/2012 11:02:14

    Have a Look at the photograph on this site, is this our Mr Robert Kelly front and centre with the folding ruler? Robert Kelly (above), the building contractor, wrote to his niece on 10th December 1910 … I am just starting work on Garnish Island in Glengarriff Harbour for a Mr. Bryce, brother of the English Ambassador to America. He bought the Island from the War Department & is converting a round Tower on it into an Irish residence. I have 12 to 15 men on it at present & hope to have a good many during next Season. I go there two or three times a week in a [...?..]. just an hours run from Bantry. So you can imagine I must have quite enough to do & keep things going & find money & pay all with the above number in Garnish Island, 10 to 12 men on Bere Island the Same number now only at the Church here & about 20 in Bantry at different jobs around there with no one to order any material for the different works except myself [http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/7466052890/in/photostream]

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    Swordscookie

    • 29/Jun/2012 11:22:09

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected] That is super work Danny, it brings the whole thing to life. The bould Mr Kelly was a busy man. Your two shots appear to be the same man alright and the ruler would indicate a planner rather than a hammer and chisel man!

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    DannyM8

    • 29/Jun/2012 13:10:08

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/nlireland It will be interesting to see where the "previous and following pictures" are from, perhaps Bantry is mentioned due to Mr Kelly being the customer??

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    Niall McAuley

    • 29/Jun/2012 13:26:12

    OCO 347 is called Ballydehob, Co. Cork : A group of men and boys, with two donkeys and carts can be seen posing for the camera, with the houses of Ballydehob village visible behind them.. OCO 349 is called St. Finbarr's Church, Bantry, Co. Cork : exterior view OCO 350 is Students at the Convent of Mercy Lace School in Bantry, Co. Cork

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    DannyM8

    • 29/Jun/2012 14:04:30

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/gnmcauleyhttp://www.flickr.com/photos/nlireland http://www.flickr.com/photos/swordscookie http://www.flickr.com/photos/gerryward http://www.flickr.com/photos/apl-irl http://www.flickr.com/photos/mogey The Dates for the other two recent Castletownbere photos need to be reassessed. Horse in a Harbour Is earlier than 1910 note "By Christmas 1910 the building was nearing completion" I would now call it the same as this one ie Summer 1908 Townscape and riverbank in an unknown location" = Castletownbere! We agreed Date: 1915? (but definitely between 1900 and 1920). I would ask why not from the same session and the same date as the other two?

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    Niall McAuley

    • 29/Jun/2012 14:22:45

    Horse in a Harbour is clearly the same date as this shot, we can see construction in progress. I not so sure about Townscape, though. The Berehaven Hotel shown did not open until 1910, by which time this church had to be further along than this. And the whitewashed Hotel on the sea wall looks to have seen at least one Winter, putting it in 1911 at a minimum.

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    ClickKen04

    • 29/Jun/2012 17:11:51

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/gnmcauley http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected] http://www.flickr.com/photos/swordscookie How do you guys do it???? Jeez, if I get lost I know who will find me.....flippin' heck....where am I ? Well done to all concerned, amazing detectives!

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    Niall McAuley

    • 29/Jun/2012 17:28:02

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/photoken04Very easy one, Ken, we just spent ages staring at this same church behind a horse on a raft!

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    National Library of Ireland on The Commons

    • 29/Jun/2012 19:45:47

    Having done absolutely no work whatsoever on this one (what's new, says you!), hope you'll all forgive me if I query the date. No problem with 1908, but don't feel this is summer unless the trees top/far right behind chapel had been stricken with some bizarre disease. There are absolutely no leaves whatsoever on them. Would think this would be early Spring - March maybe??

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    DannyM8

    • 29/Jun/2012 23:50:43

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/nlireland You make a very good point......

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    Philip Ward

    • 30/Jun/2012 01:17:50

    The old church bell tower has a distinctly Spanish style to it and those strange window door combinations.Would love to know how they came about.

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    CHG PRO PHOTOGRAPHY incorporating the APL archives

    • 30/Jun/2012 10:10:55

    Perhaps this church wasn't always an RC church? Would explain the windows and bell tower design....

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    DannyM8

    • 30/Jun/2012 11:28:08

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/nlireland Annoyingly you would seem to be correct about the trees and it would seem that there are lots of trees with lots and lots of leaves in Horse in a Harbour so our well reasoned theory that these two were taken in the same session in Summer 1908 is incorrect. Back to the drawing board........

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    National Library of Ireland on The Commons

    • 30/Jun/2012 11:37:31

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected] What's seldom is wonderful, as annoyingly I "would seem to be correct"... :D

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    DannyM8

    • 30/Jun/2012 11:42:13

    From the Beara Peninsula Heritage Photo Site. Here is a Picture of Canon McDonnell P.P. with the Castletown Berehaven A.O.H. Band in front of 'Church of the Sacred Heart. 1912 (soon after its opening) and a picture of the old church from a different angle than ours but obviously the same building old church 1911 Another shot of the building of the new church I wonder if any of our men are in this picture? The interior of the old church Interior of old Church 2

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    DannyM8

    • 30/Jun/2012 12:27:33

    Here is Cannon McDonnell Census in 1911 he is listed as John Patrick McDowell (misreading of poor hand writing) 1901 1911 Notice Kate Murphy the house keeper aged 12 years between the two 26 to 38 years. At both times there was a Parish Priest (1911 P.P. and Canon) plus two Curates and two servants.

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    DannyM8

    • 30/Jun/2012 16:04:53

    This is how the new church should have looked before they ran out of money for the big belfry.

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    DannyM8

    • 03/Jul/2012 16:54:30

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/nlireland Carol are you not buying my attempt at identifying Mr Robert Kelly?

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    National Library of Ireland on The Commons

    • 04/Jul/2012 19:59:57

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected] So sorry for delay, Danny - not enough hours in the day. Happily sold on Mr Robert Kelly of Bantry (or Bob the Builder). Have tagged and added the precious "People Identified" tag. As always, thanks a million for all your hard work.

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    Bernard Healy

    • 11/Sep/2012 15:04:28

    I sent a link to this picture to a Castletownbere friend. She tells me that the Church which is under construction in this picture is undergoing much-needed repairs & the Catholic Parish are currently using the now-defunct St Peter's Church of Ireland building on a temporary basis.

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    National Library of Ireland on The Commons

    • 30/Sep/2012 17:06:34

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/bernardhealy Lovely to hear that you're sharing our photos, and thanks for the up-to-date information on this church!