"Downing Street? Treaty Negotiations?" is at least half-wrong

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Where: Dublin, Ireland

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When: 17 August 1921

Try to find the date or year when this image was made.
We are staying with the Irish Political Figures Photographic Collection today and for the rest of this week. The title from our catalogue is extremely vague to say the least, and the underlying description "Unidentified men at an unidentified outdoor location" does not help to extricate us from the vagueness. As always I am confident that you will remedy the situation forthwith....

And very quickly, O Mac assisted with the 'vagueness' of the location - confirming that it isn't Downing Street in London, but Dawson Street in Dublin. On the date, while possibly not "treaty negotiations" (mid Jul to Dec 1921), these could be representatives ariving for "truce negotiations" (early Jul 1921). Or perhaps a Dáil meeting (late Aug 1921 or into 1922).

While there were some suggestions that the two main subjects were Seán Mac Eoin and Domhnall ua Buachalla, Flickr users Nydialy and Niall McAuley combined to confirm that this they are Seán Mac Eoin and Sean Mac Guinness. In fact, it seems, we have a copy of this image - which confirms as much, and also reconfirms the location and refines the date to 17 August 1921....


Photographers: Various

Collection: Irish Political Figures Photographic Collection

Date: Almost certainly 17 August 1921 (first public meeting of Dáil Éireann after the truce)

NLI Ref: NPA POLF266

You can also view this image, and many thousands of others, on the NLI’s catalogue at catalogue.nli.ie

Info:

Owner: National Library of Ireland on The Commons
Source: Flickr Commons
Views: 16378
irishpoliticalfiguresphotographiccollection nationallibraryofireland politicalfigured ireland mansionhouse dublin dawsonstreet mansionhousedublin path crowd probablecataloguecorrection truce angloirishwar 1920s locationidentified seánmaceoin seanmacguinness treaty

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  • profile

    O Mac

    • 04/Jul/2017 08:29:11

    The path tells us that they are arriving at the Mansion House, Dawson St. Dublin. catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000238668

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    National Library of Ireland on The Commons

    • 04/Jul/2017 08:41:12

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected] Excellent.

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    guliolopez

    • 04/Jul/2017 08:45:30

    Well done https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected] - That seems pretty unequivocal. The man on the right looks desperately familiar. But I can't place him...

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    BultacoFan

    • 04/Jul/2017 08:51:52

    If they are walking directly into the Mansion House, then the shadows suggest mid-morning and the lack of overcoats on the background figures suggests a good day, presumably summertime, therefore not a meeting of the 1st Dail in January 1919.

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    O Mac

    • 04/Jul/2017 09:02:55

    [https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]] Arthur Griffith did have a similar hat and coat. independentarchives.photoshelter.com/gallery-image/Treaty...

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    BeachcomberAustralia

    • 04/Jul/2017 09:57:56

    Something to do with this, perhaps? Reverse view, by Mr Hogan 8/7/1921 - [https://www.flickr.com/photos/nlireland/5914444811/] See camera on the porch via megazoom - catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000206844

  • profile

    sam2cents

    • 04/Jul/2017 12:31:49

    Wow! Fantastic shot. It has that strong sense of moment about it.

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    oaktree_brian_1976

    • 04/Jul/2017 12:34:54

    I did a Google reverse image search on it, comes up with Photograph by Ed Sheeran. :) no help there

  • profile

    oaktree_brian_1976

    • 04/Jul/2017 12:38:48

    Are there any marks on the photograph to tell us what kind of film was used, photographic paper used etc? The physical photo might need to be reviewed.

  • profile

    Niall McAuley

    • 04/Jul/2017 12:49:22

    Wasn't the Dail at the Mansion House for a while? Edit: Yes indeed: Dáil Éireann meeting in the Mansion House, August, 1921

  • profile

    Nydialy

    • 04/Jul/2017 13:13:43

    Wikipedia has the First Dáil and the Second Dáil at the Mansion House, between January 1919 and June 1922.

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    O Mac

    • 04/Jul/2017 13:29:41

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/beachcomberaustralia If your photograph was from the same day (8th July 1921) it was taken 3 days before the truce which came into effect on the 11thJuly. They were hectic times so it's hard to know if it was. That looks like a movie camera in the porch. 8 July 1021 – Peace Conference in the Mansion House, Dublin, President de Valera accepts an invitation to meet the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom, David Lloyd George, in London.

  • profile

    sharon.corbet

    • 04/Jul/2017 13:49:31

    [https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]] [https://www.flickr.com/photos/beachcomberaustralia] There is a British Pathe available of the Historic Mansion House Conference of 1921.

  • profile

    O Mac

    • 04/Jul/2017 14:15:07

    I think the man on the left might be Commandant Sean McKeon. If so then taken post July as McKeon was still in gaol at the time.

  • profile

    Niall McAuley

    • 04/Jul/2017 14:47:26

    A portrait of McKeon for comparison.

  • profile

    O Mac

    • 04/Jul/2017 15:08:36

    [https://www.flickr.com/photos/gnmcauley] Thanks... www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/34874653324/in/datepos... Hard to be certain....the long philtrum columns, long nose and ears are similar. If him, we know that he proposed Dev for president in the Dáil ( Mansion House) on the 26th August 1921. Maybe that's his speech he's pulling out of his pocket?? docs.wixstatic.com/ugd/96d228_4aade357a77b47a184eb098d282...

  • profile

    Bernard Healy

    • 04/Jul/2017 15:30:37

    [www.theirishstory.com/2015/04/05/the-sinn-fein-rebellion-...] If the caption is accurate, this link has a picture of Griffith arriving at the Mansion House on 8th July 1921. I don't think the guy on the right of our picture is Griffith. Bit of a shot in the dark, but is there any chance that the guy on the right might be Domhnall Ua Buachalla TD? [seamuscullen.net/images/maynooth_1916/domhnall-ua-buachal...]

  • profile

    Bernard Healy

    • 04/Jul/2017 15:51:16

    https://flic.kr/p/VPXi1h Comparison...

  • profile

    Inverarra

    • 04/Jul/2017 19:55:43

    Domhnall Ua Buachalla was the last Governor general after independence. De Valera decided to do away with the office and the story goes that he rang up Domhnall and after some small talk announced " Domhnall, you're abolished". After a moment of stunned silence Domhnall was said to have replied " Eamonn, you're a bollox too". I read this in a book so it must be true.

  • profile

    um_zarafa

    • 04/Jul/2017 21:18:08

    @ Mike: Funny story!

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    Niall McAuley

    • 04/Jul/2017 22:14:27

    :D :D :D

  • profile

    Dún Laoghaire Micheál

    • 04/Jul/2017 22:55:48

    Dev secured/bought Gortleitragh to house Domhnall Ua Buachalla. Being out in the sticks in Monkstown, it was well away from the political action of the day and suited his purpose of keeping the Governor under wraps. One of the few State formalities that the Governor manged to accomplish was the acceptance of credentials of the French Ambassador (which probably explains how I found this picture in the French national archives). The same house later became the residence of the German Ambassador where Dev was to pay a visit on another memorable occasion. gortleitragh

  • profile

    National Library of Ireland on The Commons

    • 05/Jul/2017 07:06:24

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected] Very good :)

  • profile

    Bernard Healy

    • 05/Jul/2017 12:55:19

    The house in Monkstown was actually leased directly by Ua Buachalla, and he then paid for the rent out of the expenses given him by the government. When Dev abolished the office of Governor-General a year before Ua Buachalla's term of office was due to expire, Ua Buachalla found himself owing the last year's rent on the residence with the Government refusing to foot the bill. Only the threat of an embarrassing legal action led to Dev paying up.

  • profile

    Dún Laoghaire Micheál

    • 05/Jul/2017 17:48:30

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/bernardhealy Great info! Thanks Bernard. The House was originally owned/occupied by the Stewart family - Land Agents of the DeVici Estate. It was demolished in the late 60s / early 70s to make way for Apartments.

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    Niall McAuley

    • 06/Jul/2017 18:42:36

    Gortleitragh on the 25" map. Streetview of the 70s flats there now.

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    Nydialy

    • 02/Feb/2018 11:57:57

    I just found this picture with the two men described as "Sean Mac Keown" and "Mac Guniss" both recently released from jail (16 or 17 August 1921).

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    National Library of Ireland on The Commons

    • 02/Feb/2018 13:53:22

    Excellent - Thanks https://www.flickr.com/photos/nydialy and https://www.flickr.com/photos/gnmcauley. As with many of these things, we had the information/answer all along - we just didn't know that we had :) I have tweaked the date and description to reflect this confirmation! Much appreciated!