"Black and Tans with captured motorcycle, Clonmel Street, Dublin" probably isn't

Download this image

More from this collection

Related by Where

Research Help!

Where: Dublin, Ireland

Try to find the spot where the photographer was standing.

When: 01 January 1921

Try to find the date or year when this image was made.
Back with the Hogan-Wilson Collection today and this time in black and white (I think:-(). Black and Tans with a captured motor cycle, I wonder did it put up a fight and did they learn much when it was interrogated?

While the catalogue entry for this is pretty definitive ("Black and Tans with captured motorcycle, Clonmel Street, Dublin"), the consensus is that there is at least one error in that title. And possibly more. The first issue is the location. This is not Clonmel Street (a tiny "dead end" of a street off Harcourt Street), but of course it is O'Connell Street. The second question is whether the man in the goggles (also in uniform) is the bike's rider. A despatch rider. In which case is the bike being "captured" or simply "carried". The third question is whether these are Auxillaries (Auxies) rather than Black and Tans (Tans)…..


Photographer: W. D. Hogan

Collection: Hogan Wilson Collection

Date: c.1920-1921

NLI Ref.: HOGW 128

You can also view this image, and many thousands of others, on the NLI’s catalogue at catalogue.nli.ie

Info:

Owner: National Library of Ireland on The Commons
Source: Flickr Commons
Views: 10375
hoganwilsoncollection wdhogan nationallibraryofireland blackandtans motorcycle clonmelstreet auxiliaries royalirishconstabulary irishwarofindependence ri3434 nc1260 tt oconnellstreet dublin probablecataloguecorrection possiblecataloguecorrection crossleytender locationidentified cobbles

Add Tags
  • profile

    abandoned railways

    • 19/Feb/2019 09:01:37

    The guy with goggles is the despatch rider for the bike. Possibly a Triumph. When the WW1 started, recruted Despach riders had to bring their own bikes!

  • profile

    metrovick

    • 19/Feb/2019 09:10:38

    Great photograph. The street looks a little wide for Clonmel street or even Harcourt street for that matter. Could it be Dame street?

  • profile

    BeachcomberAustralia

    • 19/Feb/2019 09:19:29

    The truck looks like it could be one of those Crossley Tenders we have seen before - https://www.flickr.com/photos/nlireland/32398476058/

  • profile

    Niall McAuley

    • 19/Feb/2019 10:08:54

    O'Connell Street, looking North. Streetview

  • profile

    BultacoFan

    • 19/Feb/2019 10:16:15

    According to Wikipedia (so it must be true!), the RN plate is from the Preston area and the NC plate is from Manchester.

  • profile

    Niall McAuley

    • 19/Feb/2019 10:29:19

    Clery's being rebuilt in the background after 1916 destruction.

  • profile
  • profile

    KestrelSprite

    • 19/Feb/2019 10:50:11

    NC registrations issued in Manchester between August 1920 and March 1923. NC 1260 probably early in that period. I think an RN plate is more likely to be Royal Navy. RN numbers for Preston weren't issued until 1929.. Later- I have just discovered that RN number plates were used by the Royal Navy between 1921 and 1982 - see nice-reg.co.uk/number-plates/number-plates/military-numbe...

  • profile

    John A. Coffey

    • 19/Feb/2019 11:09:04

    "Come out ye Black and Tans, come out and fight me like a man"

  • profile
  • profile

    KestrelSprite

    • 19/Feb/2019 12:01:28

    NA is a Manchester plate, starting in October 1913 and running right through to July 1919.

  • profile

    BeachcomberAustralia

    • 19/Feb/2019 12:12:29

    [https://www.flickr.com/photos/bultacofan] [https://www.flickr.com/photos/kestrelsprite] [https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/] I am seeing RI 3434 via megazoom™ at catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000279895 . There is a bit of a contentious smudge after the "I"

  • profile

    KestrelSprite

    • 19/Feb/2019 18:18:28

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/beachcomberaustralia Yes - I can see what you mean, but quite a bit of the motorcycle's plate is obscured by road dirt. RI registrations were issued by the County Borough Council of Dublin from December 1903 apparently until March 1927. The motorcyclist, if that is him on the left, seems to be in civilian clothes so, on balance, I now think this is a Dublin-registered, civilian motorbike.

  • profile

    sam2cents

    • 19/Feb/2019 21:26:56

    I remember my grandfather telling me he witnessed a British Army motorcycle courier being knocked off a motorbike by IRA by the simple expedient of holding a rope across a narrow street the courier was travelling down. The weird thing is he said that the courier survived, whoever he was, but was assassinated in hospital later that same day. I always wondered who the courier was or how my grandfather came to witness the event. If anyone has any ideas I would be delighted to know. My grandfather was named Frank Lonergan and he was born in 1906, died 1993.

  • profile

    Niall McAuley

    • 20/Feb/2019 08:53:28

    If it is RI 3434, it was registered shortly after 1915 - the 1914-15 directory (at lennon-wylie) goes to 3102. I seem to remember Carol saying there is a copy of 1915-16 at the Towers, we might find out who registered the bike.

  • profile

    abandoned railways

    • 20/Feb/2019 09:12:21

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/kestrelsprite The Rider's jacket has a breast pocket lapel, civilians would not have one. Definately uniform.

  • profile

    BeachcomberAustralia

    • 20/Feb/2019 11:53:45

    Please forgive my ignorance with all this, but the Tam O' Shanter caps seems to mean that these were 'Auxies', a distinct group of ex British Army officers, separate to the Black and Tans - "Recruiting began in July 1920, and by November 1921, the division was 1,900 strong. The Auxiliaries were nominally part of the RIC, but actually operated more or less independently in rural areas. Divided into companies (eventually fifteen of them), each about one hundred strong, heavily armed and highly mobile, they operated in ten counties, mostly in the south and west, where Irish Republican Army (IRA) activity was greatest. They wore either RIC uniforms or their old army uniforms with appropriate police badges, along with distinctive Tam o' Shanter caps." From - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auxiliary_Division See also discussion at - [https://www.flickr.com/photos/nlireland/6492236861/]

  • profile

    Niall McAuley

    • 21/Feb/2019 09:04:38

    The Auxies wore those caps with an RIC metal badge, and the flash behind the badge identified the company they were in. In the Relief pic above, some have a Maltese cross flash, and I see a five-pointed star and some other unidentifiable ones. Today's group is like this I company flash but this page states that I company were based in Monaghan/Leitrim, so maybe the colours are different.

  • profile

    Dr. Ilia

    • 22/Feb/2019 09:00:06

    WOW! Amazing shot!

  • profile

    dermotmadden1

    • 23/Feb/2019 00:34:18

    The rider, probably a serviceman, appears to have injured his right hand. Goggles also damaged though this be could be scratches to the image itself. Can be sure that this is not a "capture", they are assisting one of their own.